tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post8709408115406301230..comments2024-02-14T22:50:48.749+10:30Comments on Bill Kerr: Comparing Game Maker with Etoys / SqueakBill Kerrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00206808014093631762noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-89825102876106473602008-05-16T01:04:00.000+09:302008-05-16T01:04:00.000+09:30hi anonymous,Please supply some urls for the alleg...hi anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Please supply some urls for the alleged "research papers indicating that Squeak/Etoys really does not work well with students at all" - would love to see themBill Kerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00206808014093631762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-7747944088704192192008-05-14T10:18:00.000+09:302008-05-14T10:18:00.000+09:30Instead of relying on your own intuition you can a...Instead of relying on your own intuition you can actually find research papers indicating that Squeak/Etoys really does not work well with students at all. This has nothing to do with marketing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-37592365707984049442007-09-15T13:54:00.000+09:302007-09-15T13:54:00.000+09:30hi rob,yes I agree that the google stats are fairl...hi rob,<BR/><BR/>yes I agree that the google stats are fairly meaningless<BR/><BR/>sylvia martinez took me to task on that too, suggesting that if someone named a new program "Britney" then it would be an instant hit :-)<BR/><BR/>at any rate, the forum visits indicate that programs like scratch and game maker remain far more popular than etoys<BR/><BR/>I raised this on the squeakland list more recently (<A HREF="http://squeakland.org/pipermail/squeakland/2007-August/003754.html" REL="nofollow"> August 20th </A>), citing these figures:<BR/><BR/>[quote]<BR/>Other programs have developed or are in the process of developing large, very communities of young people<BR/><BR/>Scratch<BR/>forum:<BR/>http://scratch.mit.edu/forums/<BR/>Currently 8 guests on line, no registered users<BR/><BR/>gallery:<BR/>http://scratch.mit.edu/galleries/?page=150<BR/>150 pages of projects, 10 projects per page<BR/><BR/>GameMaker<BR/>http://gmc.yoyogames.com/<BR/>230 users active in the past 15 minutes<BR/>http://www.yoyogames.com/make/browse?page=1&beta=1<BR/>40 pages of beta games, 20 projects per page<BR/>52 pages of games in progress, 20 projects per page<BR/><BR/>I don't see anything equivalent to this activity for etoys / squeak<BR/>[/quote]<BR/><BR/>etoys has a feature where you can read (but not alter) the text code from the visual drag and drop interface - which I agree is important to smooth the transitionBill Kerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00206808014093631762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-45361227212523070462007-09-15T12:39:00.000+09:302007-09-15T12:39:00.000+09:30great post with lots of interesting stuff to follo...great post with lots of interesting stuff to follow up. <BR/><BR/>i would take issue, though, with your google searches to prove popularity. By September, searching for Game Maker now returns 65 million hits (as against 27 million when the post was written 6 months ago). <BR/><BR/>Squeak now has 8.3 million (up from 5.7) - Etoys stable at 2.4 million. <BR/><BR/>So ... are there 38 million new game maker pages in the last 6 months? <BR/><BR/>or is it so rough as to be meaningless? <BR/><BR/>searching for "game maker" in quotations would be a little fairer - and it comes in last (2 million hits). (Gamemaker as one word comes in at 1.1 million.) <BR/><BR/>is it three times less popular than squeak? <BR/><BR/>of course google is returning every page with the word "squeak" -<BR/><BR/> even if the tech usage is over represented on the web (and has higher page rank due to more cross referencing by the tech users) one hardly imagines it will dominate all listings. <BR/><BR/>Its like comparing "keyboard" with "mouse" - the warm rodent will come out somewhere - and so will the sound (squeak) it makes. <BR/><BR/>still some great stuff to follow up - my pedantic mind just stumbled over the lead in <BR/><BR/>also, in discussing GameMaker, unless i'm mistaken, GM does not show you a code translation of the the visual elements you drag into place. <BR/><BR/>that leaves a rather big gap to cross when moving from visual drag and drop, into the coding side. <BR/><BR/>i would love to see it give you the code view of the loops and conditions you drag in. Would scaffold students into the syntax with relevant examples. <BR/><BR/>i'm off to check squeak - thanksRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00064302845002513253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-83429479353537677782007-04-30T20:04:00.000+09:302007-04-30T20:04:00.000+09:30Thanks Bill. Very useful.Thanks Bill. Very useful.Warahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02489685811715890301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-28729371504511594162007-04-26T10:39:00.000+09:302007-04-26T10:39:00.000+09:30Thanks BillGood reply.How could the "short term ta...Thanks Bill<BR/>Good reply.<BR/><BR/>How could the "short term tactical advantages" of GM and the "longer term strategic benefits" of Etoys / Squeak be merged?<BR/><BR/>With the OLPC coming, now is the time to get it right. To give the OLPC developers a perspective on what best practice in a programming environment could look like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-53493989306701398662007-04-26T10:14:00.000+09:302007-04-26T10:14:00.000+09:30hi tony,I think for developed country users the in...hi tony,<BR/><BR/>I think for developed country users the initial learning curve for Etoys is steeper. I didn't have a specific section on that but it was implied I think in:<BR/>point 2 - the purpose of Etoys is initially a bit vague<BR/><BR/>point 4 - poor organisation of tutorials on the Squeakland site<BR/><BR/>especially point 11 and 13 - the big difference in the morphic haloes and the quirks with the mouse buttons are very significant for those brought up on conventional windows programs<BR/><BR/>I could with more time write a better piece comparing the two programs. I was just trying to quickly cover the ground involved in comparing two programs whose strategic aims are quite different. Please treat it as a rough draft overview. I would say that Game Maker has short term tactical advantages and Etoys / Squeak has longer term strategic benefits.<BR/><BR/>Game Maker is about grabbing a new, hot niche market, Squeak is about changing the world in more significant ways - eg. introducting a new UI (which is part of the OLPC) and in other ways which are hard to express briefly and which have only gradually emerged for me as I have dug into the history and underlying philosophy of Alan Kay<BR/><BR/>So, one issue with Etoys/Squeak is that the initiators have a great vision but poor nitty gritty detailed implementation of that vision. Alan Kay once described himself as an good ideas man who was a "poor finisher" - and it shows in the community I thinkBill Kerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00206808014093631762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-12892437862052074792007-04-26T08:55:00.000+09:302007-04-26T08:55:00.000+09:30BillYou would have us believe that the main reason...Bill<BR/>You would have us believe that the main reason for the relative success of Game Maker is better marketing and presentation.<BR/><BR/>But what about the steepness of the initiial learning curve? Within the first half hour with GM I had made a game. After two abortive one hour sessions with etoys, I am still fumbling with mouse buttons and yet to find the games editable source.<BR/><BR/>The entry level is crucial for young learners. If I can't make it work for me, how will I make it work for kids? What am I missing? Are you sure kids won't miss it too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com