tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post738962543314324255..comments2024-02-14T22:50:48.749+10:30Comments on Bill Kerr: thoughts on a python programming competitionBill Kerrhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00206808014093631762noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-26294008630273300132007-08-31T11:25:00.000+09:302007-08-31T11:25:00.000+09:30Well done NCSS and thanks all for your comments. L...Well done NCSS and thanks all for your comments. Lucychilli has me thinking about competitions vs. camps. Competitions are difficult: if we automate the marking, we lose much of the creativity, if we allow wide ranging creativity, the marking is very time consuming.<BR/><BR/>Why have competitions? they give motivation and allow geographically dispersed bright kids the opportunity to interact with other bright kids. They don't do much for the middle or lower groups.<BR/><BR/>Camps can be motivating and bring kids together with a common interest. Rather than kids competing, it is easy to set up a sharing 'open source' atmosphere where kids are happy to share and show off their creations.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03384288304778972289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-4669496752244427012007-08-27T16:51:00.000+09:302007-08-27T16:51:00.000+09:30lucychilli asked a few questions about ways to fac...lucychilli asked a few questions about ways to facilitate the teaching of programming<BR/><BR/>I think there are partial answers but no finished answer. A program like Scratch (designed for after school clubhouse with little adult input) for example has taken many years to evolve and the evolution has not finished yet. Some really clever people have worked hard and thought hard about these issues for many years - and we are not there yet.<BR/><BR/>One guiding principle should probably be "hard fun" - even though I'm not completely happy with that slogan because it does gloss over the very real frustration / elation cycle that I've mentioned. <BR/><BR/>1) Some things we know - a good visual interface, iconic programming, is essential for first timers, eg. Scratch, Etoys, GameMaker.<BR/><BR/>Apart from that I can think of two other things that are important:<BR/><BR/>2) Motivation or engagement, this is a powerful argument for game making which does motivate many students, although mainly boys<BR/><BR/>3) An understanding of genetic epistemology (internal knowledge development) - what sort of programming constructs are accessible to children at whatever stage they are at? <BR/><BR/>Some of the recent alan kay posts to the non universals thread of the squeakland list, such as <A HREF="http://squeakland.org/pipermail/squeakland/2007-August/003772.html" REL="nofollow"> this one</A>, have persuaded me that I need to do some more study of point (3). I plan to post some of this to my blog in the hopefully near future.<BR/><BR/>I think we need all 3 points above. Otherwise, the 5% of natural born hackers will continue to learn programming but most of the population won't. (perhaps I should write this up with more detail as a separate blog post?)Bill Kerrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00206808014093631762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-39066089266287869232007-08-25T18:22:00.000+09:302007-08-25T18:22:00.000+09:30Python is brilliant. I enter my senior class in th...Python is brilliant. I enter my senior class in the Challenge each year and I enjoy working with them on it. I believe that SydUni runs a beginners and an advanced course on teaching Python and also has a Summer School for senior students (competitive entry, not just for programming students) where the coding is done in Python with no assumptions about prior experience. I went in the first year as a supervising teacher. It was great!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-77632836562050612172007-08-25T16:01:00.000+09:302007-08-25T16:01:00.000+09:30In response to some of lucychili's statements, I f...In response to some of lucychili's statements, I find that students experience the <A HREF="http://www.watiwara.org/mdl1/mod/resource/view.php?id=801" REL="nofollow"> AhHa phenomena</A> phenomena more when we are learning programming than any other skill that I have taught. I often wonder if it is the way that I teach it. It is when undertaking programming challenges that I personally tend to experience the AhHa feeling a lot and we tend to teach the way that we learn ourselves.<BR/><BR/>As I have become more experienced as a teacher I find it useful to talk about the learning curve story prior to starting programming. It was only a matter of 2 or 3 weeks ago that a student talked to me about how, on that weekend, he had had an epiphany with some Javascript programming. I took him to the chart on the wall, my printout of the <A HREF="http://www.watiwara.org/mdl1/mod/resource/view.php?id=801" REL="nofollow">learning<BR/>curve story</A>, and asked "Is that what it felt like?". His reaction was very strong and interesting - he basically said "How did you know?"<BR/><BR/>So it could be "one of those ride a bike things that feels difficult to explain and the structure sticks once you get the hang of it." The skun knees and hands from learning to ride a bike stick well in my memory.Warahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00270068145598536266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-37957591999235852092007-08-25T15:36:00.000+09:302007-08-25T15:36:00.000+09:30Thanks for your insights Bill. I have wanted to l...Thanks for your insights Bill. I have wanted to learn Python for a while now, but again the time issue always seems to beat me. Programming is a bit like playing golf... it's probably not so hard to learn to do it, but it can be a lifelong challenge to learn to do it WELL!<BR/><BR/>ChrisChris Betcherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12435882756644713537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-66357594923120694382007-08-25T09:54:00.000+09:302007-08-25T09:54:00.000+09:30Hi folksI think the NCSS program is great.Perhaps ...Hi folks<BR/>I think the NCSS program is great.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the doing it remotely thing is tricky. Perhaps a camp might give people that start time with friends to get over the initial hurdle.<BR/><BR/>(I am trying to organise something like this for 2008 in Robe SA looking at squeak / python / php depending on interest.<BR/><BR/>If NCSS would like to have someone come along that would be great.<BR/><BR/>I think the English language, or any language is complex to understand.<BR/>Being able to speak both human and functional code languages give people a much stronger set of tools for understanding the world around them in technology and human terms.<BR/><BR/>Bill do you feel your blogpost encourages new folks to try? =)<BR/>How would you organise a program which made coding really accessible?<BR/>What does a simple path into coding look like from a teacher perspective?<BR/>There are a few of you who do so perhaps there are some answers there.<BR/>What were the first concepts that you found helped you to move on?<BR/>Perhaps it is one of those ride a bike things that feels difficult to explain and the structure sticks once you get the hang of it.<BR/>Time and the opporunity to have a go with friends feels like it might help?<BR/><BR/>Bravo to NCSS and to Bill<BR/>I think this stuff will become more straightforward when more people have had a go so these opportunities are important.lucychilihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06519163424062626658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29868932.post-64797151486473876842007-08-24T15:54:00.000+09:302007-08-24T15:54:00.000+09:30Hi Bill,Thanks for your feedback on the NCSS Chall...Hi Bill,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your feedback on the NCSS Challenge. I agree that there is a mixture of frustration and elation in the Challenge, which matches my experience of programming in general.<BR/><BR/>As to the issue of reinforcing stereotypes: our aim in running the Challenge is to have teenagers realise that programming can be an intellectually challenging and rewarding activity (unlike, say, drawing a window with Visual Basic).<BR/><BR/>Hopefully this will lead some students to consider further study in computing, but we aren't trying to single-handedly turn around a global demise in enrolments in IT courses at university level.<BR/><BR/>We are also constrained in some ways by our current infrastructure (copying and pasting code into a web browser, automated marking, etc.) but hope to address some of the constraints over time.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your feedback,<BR/>Michael Cahill<BR/>NCSS Challenge, University of SydneyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13206120898616088761noreply@blogger.com